I don’t hate Battle Royale games, I hate the fact they’re not as good as the could be.
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28.07.2021
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I somewhat both agree and disagree with you at the same time. I don't think the only fun part of the game are firefights. While playing PUBG, I had a lot of fun actually sneaking around and ambushing people. For example there was this exciting fear when hearing someone running in a room next to you, when you know you probably wont kill them fair and you need to keep silent but also to pinpoint exactly where they are, so you find them first and fight on your terms. There's also a stark contrast between silent sneaking and intense violent combat, making them both more enjoyable. Then after a few hours that got old and i realised that dying doesnt matter that much, and its probably easier to go risk it all then die quick, then find another match. Especially if you're unlucky with your starting gear. That kind of killed the fun for me.
Darwinism the game. Real life survival isn't fun and only the best / luckiest get the rewards. Why should a game be like this? Battle Royale is most liked by children for a reason, they don't know about those awful aspects of life yet.
1: Try to go to a isolated building. 2: Frantically try to get to decent weapon 3: Get killed by a sweaty tryhard 4: Play something else or repeat step 1
If step 2 goes well, the fun can begin, and even then, its usually only about 5 minutes before i either get gamgbanged or picked off from afar.
Actually i think you kinda mix up 2 Different genres.
One would be the Arena Style game. (1 life. youre out of the match if you die)
The Battle Royale is a Subgenre of an Arena Style game.
Examples for the first genre would be old school Counterstrike (Normal Arena game mode). (you die youre out of the game) or Tetris 99. The Prep/Downtime is sometimes (not always part of that Gamemode) and can be considered Bad. (Like having to watch your teamates in CS to finish the match)
The Battle royale adds the item/ressource hunt mechanic (lets call it prefight prep) And for me thats the Genre defining part of that game. Players start with basic stuff. Hunt for more stuff. And try to survive the arena.
The Prefight prep in my opionion is actually part of the main gameplay loop. (Including the spawn mechanic)
From my experience the "get stuff. To get stronger than others and win the game" is actually the thing battle royale players actually enjoy. The skill and Challenge in succeeding does not soley depend on gunplay. But also on how to exploit the RNG system (get to spots where the best loot is before others get that loot)
You're very unfair here. For a start those older games aren't really battle Royal games. I would also say a lot of players playing it is required. Specifically 100 players. I wouldn't consider a pvp 1v1 a battle royal, but a deathmatch. secondly you arbitrarily define gameplay loops here. You claim that the customisation of your character is a key part of any battle royal game. No its not. Its an additional feature. A battle royal game doesn't require deep customisation of the character. If you're going to claim that that is a core mechanic of a battle royal game then you may as well claim the same for WOW or any of a dozen online MMOs. when that isn't the case. Claiming its a core mechanic of battle royal games is absurd.
The Core Gameplay loop of a battle royal game is to find gear to kill players to get gear to kill players. The last one left wins. As the match goes on the map of the battle royal game will shrink. Thus forcing players into engagements. The core gameplay loop of a battle royal game isn't bad. In fact I would argue its quite good. Saying that I can't stand the game mode. I've never been a fan of shooter games and I don't like the randomness of battle royal. I like deep strategy games where decisions matter. Battle Royal Games on the other hand survive on the player's skill with weapons alone. CSGO has some tactical decisions so I perfer it. Battle royal just doesn't. That's fine. COD and Battlefield also don't have any level of tactics to them either. That doesn't make them bad games, just not the game for me. Battle Royal games are fine games to play, but that doesn't mean everyone has to like them. And it doesn't mean its okay for you to claim they are objectively bad just because you disagree with their sales model and find the games unfun. It also doesn't make it okay to compare them to gambling just because there is a lot of randomness in the gameplay.
I don't like battle royal game so the only thing I can shout at you for being wrong about, is that I would shout it you for being wrong. Does… that count as fulfilling the part of the "we all know the drill part"?
I love this fix. It's basically the return of the arena shooter. And the arena shooter is among the best things that ever happened in videogames.
A little counter argument form someone who played his last br like 3 years ago: scavenging for items to get an advantage is part of the same loop as actually killing other players. your argument that killing and collecting are separated does not work well together because it is exactly these 2 things that need to interact for the whole thing to come together. battle royale in the case of the 3 dominant games of that genre does not just mean you fight until 1 bloke is left.
in fact if these were actually bad games, why do people invest so much time into them? if its just marketing people stop playing as soon as they stop having fun.
Thank you for putting pretty much all my thoughts on the BR system into words. One issue I have is I think a game should be enjoyable for bad players as well. Battlefield is an example that comes to mind. I'm awful at all fps games and I still find fun in that game. If you're bad at a BR game you have 2 choices:
A) Drop in a populated area and die immediately, get kicked out for losing, then spend most of your time finding a game or dropping in.
B) Drop somewhere unpopulated so you can at least grab a gun without dying right away. Sounds like a solution to the first option right? Well now you're doomed to spend 5-15 minutes walking around and doing nothing. Never finding another player. Then suddenly, as stated in the video, you die to something out of your control. Surprise attack 1 shots, shot in the back, sniped without knowing the sniper exists, etc. Then most of your time is spent doing nothing.
Obviously the answer is "get good" but don't you think games should be enjoyable for more people than the 5 or so percent that play the games 24/7? I think the multiple lives suggestion would fix this issue a lot. Give me some more chances man! That's the whole reason I'd avoid Search and Destroy in CoD games. One life and you get cheesed out of it is no fun at all.
Ho boy. I 100% with you that Battle Royale games suck and that the mode itself is flawed AF. BUT, half your arguments are utter bullshit. Let's start the the biggest one: "The gameplay loop is about facing off other humans and have a fair fight". This is not only incompletle, it's also partially wrong. Believe it or not, the loothing phase IS part of the gameplay loop. Just as talking to an NPC and accepting quests in the Witcher is part of it's gameplay loop. Wether you personally like it or not is a different matter, but it definitely is part of the loop, thus you can't just claim that there is so much downtime inbetween. There are many other games that have a lot of preperation time in some forms. Monster Hunter being one of those, in Dark Souls you'll also spend a lot of time thinking about how to level up, which weapons to use, upgrading your gear etc, surveying your surrounding and looting. In Borderlands you'll also find yourself standing around comparing stats on weapons, making choices and choices. These things ARE PART OF THE CORE GAMEPLAY LOOP, and A LOT OF PEOPLE DO LIKE THEM. Personally I do not enjoy the looting part in battle royale games either. Yet, it is undeniably part of the core gameplay loop and saying that it is not and in no way enjoyable just shows how little you really understand about battle royale gamemode.
Secondly, having "fair fights" isn't mandatory, nor a goal. And it's not exactly a bad thing either. Any game that offers different kinds of loadouts will throw out the "fair fight" thingy. This includes any games that have a skill system or classes, including PRETTY MUCH ANY MMO GAME. Counter Strike has different weapons and even dark souls is anything but fair. Not only do you have different weapons/equipment/loadout, you also have different character levels. And even if you do find yourself nice equipment, you can easily loose against people with worse stuff than you. There are different weapon types that excel in different kind of situations. Maybe you found the best rifle in the game, but if you find yourself fighting in close quarter against a shotgun, you are likely to still loose the fight. Even if the shotgun was objectively worse than the rifle. On top of that, you also did directly criticize hero selection/loadout selection, claiming it already unbalances 1v1 duels. This so far isn't wrong, but the assumption that you should go into 1v1 duels is already flawed. The way you made it sound means that pretty much any competitive hero shooter is fundamentally flawed. And your argument doesn't even have any ground. Out of the 3 games you mentioned, only ONE actually does have a loadout system/hero selection. And it's the only one thats supposed to be played in groups of 3 (at least last time I played the game). That being said, in any BR game that has teammodes, you aren't supposed to engage in 1v1s all the time, but ACT AS A TEAM. You don't just rely on your own character's abilities, but also on your teammates, come up with strategies and counters and try to take out the enemies one by one as fast as possible. You only fight 1v1 if there is no better solution or if you fucked up. So if you constantly find yourself fighting 1v1 despite being in a squad, it just means that you suck. Of course you could still argue that even in teams, having different heroes/laodouts from the start of the match is a flaw. But then again, this argument pretty much invalidates any class system. Overwatch's gameplay is entirely build on a hero selection system, Team Fortress 2 is still alive doing the same. And again, pretty much ANY FUCKING MMO uses a class/role system. I legit don't see how this could possibly be written off as a "flaw" exclusively to battle royale games.
My second big issue with your arguments, which clearly showed to me that you have barely any idea of what you are talking about, is the start of the match dropping mechanic. Calling it a glorified loadingscreen? Holy shit, have you even played any of these games? First I want to make clear: I have played battle royale games that spawns you directly on the ground and doesn't let you select your location. This completely removes any pre-planning and adaptation and instead shifts it towards reaction and improvisation. With a drop mechanic comes with a couple of very big and important points. As you mentioned, it let's you plan ahead and choose how you want to play the game (safe or risky). But more importantly, it let's you SEE where other people go, and prepare and react to that. If for some reason you find a lot of people targeting the same area you initially wanted to go to, you might want to improvise and decide to go somewhere else. Or you might use that to your advantage and start a quick engagement, trying to take over important locations and loot. The dropout mechanic is incredibly important in determing how a round plays out, not just in the short term, but also for the long run. Calling it a glorified laodingscreen just underscores your lack of understanding for this gamemode.
My next point is your criticism on how these types of games favor stealth. Sorry but what exactly is your point here? That you don't like the stealth/surprise bits? In case you haven't noticed, this is actually one of the biggest charms for battle royale games. You need to stay aware of your entire surroundings 24/7, if possible, smartly pick your fights. Decide when, where and how to engage, or maybe decide it's too dangerous to do so. Always make sure that you are prepared for a possible assassination. There are so many split seconds decisions you have to do, so many unknown variables and unpredictable situations. For a lot of people, this is a lot of fun. If it's not for you, then this game mode simply isn't for you. Not that complicated.
Again, I personally hate battle royale games as well, especially the shooter ones. I've tested a fair share of them and they just don't speak to me. I also know that they have fundamental flaws, that nobody even cares about fixing. In fact, a lot of people seem to even like this type of gamemode BECAUSE of it's flaws. But your arguments are hardly about said flaws. What you tried to do here is dress up your personal opinion as flaws of the gamemode, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE. I also do not enjoy the looting parts of the game. I do not find as much fun in the ambushing aspect of the game. I also can't find much happyness in coming out on 2nd place out of 100, despite it being statistically better than being in a winning team out of 2. Yet, none of these things are fundamental flaws of the gamemode. It's personal opinion.
Sorry, but this video is a joke. I agree on the title, but disagree with most of the content of this video.
Good vid, I totally understand your stand point on battle Royale and have experienced the many unfair deaths and at the same time had some really great moments and victory’s and bad ones as well and it does take skill to win and knowledge of the map and general idea of where the good loot is you have a good chance of winning and there is luck involved too, one game I had I ran out of ammo, the rest of my team was dead and it was me and one guy left, Grenades didn’t work and the only thing I had left was a small building between me and the last remaining enemy player and a Molotov that picked up for no reason, I threw it as he turned the corner got shot but didn’t die and I somehow won, winner winner chicken dinner, maybe the randomness of it is the reason I still play pubg but form that game on I always grab a Molotov just in case, it was a very memorable game and probably one of the reasons I still play
I agree with a lot of your videos, but I thought your points here were quite weak. These systems in battle royales are specifically designed to create imbalances, so that different characters and weapons have clear advantages depending on the situation. You literally bring up that hero choices, referencing Apex, aren't good but are "interesting in team based games". Apex is a team based game. There's also a tactical advantage to choosing how long to wait to drop. I could go on, but it feels like you're missing the point of the games. They're designed to have short, more intense bursts of combat.
I just want more players for mmorpg games. But all the kids on battle royal 24/7. So now we have so many underrated games that get pushed aside for not being battle royal. Simplicity and randomness is whats keeping that game mode afloat.
Edit: would you say the same logic said in this video would apply to games like league of legends? I don't play this game but I have played it recently a few times and around its first release. I never fancied the game and when I did well I didn't have any enjoyment from it. I feel like it's the hero vs hero part but maybe I'm wrong.
To me, the key difference between most games and Battle Royales is clear as day.
Deathmatch/Team Deathmatch is chaotic fun, but everyone has an equal chance of winning based on their own DM skill, and Map Knowledge.
Battle Royale's victory is determined by RNG, your success rating is determined by RNG, your failure rating is determined by RNG. Player skill does contribute, but if you get stuck with a pistol, vs the guy next to you who managed to find the "Instagib 4597" rocket launcher; then I think it's pretty clear who is destined to win this encounter.
I agree with everything except that it's not your fualt specifically for apex legends, if you hear footsteps and dont react then it is your fualt, other then that I love the vid
one of such "cry morr git gud" morons once said, that fairness is a communist notion, that there is nothin fair RL gues he forgot we were talking abou a game and that fairness is not about equality of outcome but opportunity
1) Isn't the concept of "different classes with different abilities" core to a lot of non-BR, team-based games? TF2 and Overwatch did this pretty well and I think the variation makes things pretty fun.
2) Although you're mostly right about the point of airdrops, I will say that there's something kinda funny about being able to see other teams drop along with you Apex–although in my experience, the thought process is "oh dangit they're right next to us".
Then it's a scramble to find loot, which goes back to your point about random loot, which is totally right. Random loot feels really.. unfair. It makes me wonder how much of the entire Apex scene is just people who are just as good as each other but being propelled up or down in rankings based on luck. They're still better than me, but there's a cap on skill if the loot's random like that.
While I agree, I think the falling out of the sky does serve a purpose, you can choose exactly where you land and you also need to plan it out. People who land before you CAN actually shoot you out of the air
S4League did this gamemode right, having their BR matches on a time and score limit, the more kills and assists you make the better your score. If you reach max score before time is up you win, if the match times out then the person with the highest score wins. If you die, you respawn in 7 seconds. The arena is small unlike Fortnite so you will find enemy players in seconds, but there are plenty of obstacles to take cover and to hide for a surprise attack. There is even a comeback mechanic where the person with the highest points is worth 2 normal kills and 1 assist. (re)spawns are randomized and instant. Only up to 12 players per match. No loot, no randomness, you pick your weapons before starting the game and no classes or abilities.
Too bad the game was shut down for good last April. I played the living heck out of that mode.
29:00 YES! Everything else I dont care but FUCK dont remove me because of luck.
In a 60 players lobby of apex (my core game since 2 years) I also have bad servers – – > Server lag – – > My screen freezing for like 300 ms – – > oh now i am dead – – > go back to lobby, chose characters – – > oh no, only 2 players in the team- – > other guy quits – – > you are alone – – > you quit cause 1 v3????? – – > back to lobby…. PUH SHIT, OKAY SOOOO HOOPEFULLY NEXT GAME IS GREAT – – – > Load into a game, hope for 3 players, now drop, loot, get a good gun, fight OKAY ANOTHER PLAYER FROM A CORNER SHOOTS MY BACK, RUN AWAY –> i do get out, heal up but OMG TEAMMATE IS DOWN, NOW HE IS DEAD, oh he quit the game, now we are 2 v 3 for the enitrety of the game but lets go on…
– – – – – – – – > 4 squats left, now they fight, we roll in as a 3rd party yeah, I shoot but…. NOOOO SERVER DISCONNECTION….
i load in….
39 seconds later…
I STILL LIVE BUT…. teammate is dead, i am alone, only one squad left, they have kraber, fully kitted 99s and 301s and they wait @ the highground…
okay I think to myself… Nothing to loose, so lets at least have some fun
I go out, drop all my stuff and teabag them, showing them, at least i want to end it with a funny little punching battle against one of them…
OH NO THEY ARE COMPLETE TRYHARD SWEATS. GREEDY FOR THE KILL AND FOR KD (as if 1 kill more would benefit them anyhow)
– – > THEY HAVE A COMPETITION IN WHO COULD KILL AN UNARMED TARGET FIRST IN TEAMFIRE, – – – – > okay i am dead, back to the lobby…
hopefully next game is better…
APEX in a nutshell…
You simply cannot improve (only if you are completely cracked and have like 6 hours a day to play… I DONT HAVE AND I DONT WANT TO)
Still I love it ocasionally cause the chaos and how you can dodge bullets in between a cluster fight of 6 squads and come out alive with your mates banners…. That is the mist fun for me… Not killing or shooting bit those clutch survival moments where you move inbetween squads with wraith or pathfinder, like lava would be everywhere
Great video! I'm releasing a similar critique on my channel soon, but I talk a lot more about the way various mechanics push you away from the core gameplay loop of combat and reward passivity in a way unlike other FPS games. I love your takes here. I agree that you spend a larger amount of time sitting around than you do playing. It makes for a fanfare over nothing and ultimately serves players who value the looks and flashiness of the game over players who actually want to fight competitive battles. The random loot only makes it worse.
Can't wait to check out your other content! Keep it up.
i don't play battle royal but i think you're mistaking battle royal with deathmatch. and everything you call bad is what actually makes it battle royal, there's a great video series of sovietwomble about dayz and the games genres it has created. i would recommend it to you. battle royal is not purely about killing players, its about finding them and hiding from them, discovery etc. its not deathmatch. you just don't like battle royal genre in general like me. i like survival, looter, builder. and btw there was battle royal before dayz too, it was minecraft hunger games mod. so the first mechanics of battle royal actually comes from hunger games.
Id say your point 3 is kind of incorrect, youre forgetting being able to see where enemies are going and choosing who and where you want to fight or if you want to avoid a fight for a while and choose a further point, just because you dont have to actively press buttons doesnt mean you arent actively playing the game at that point. You can turn your brain off but it does matter quite a bit where you start and who else is starting there.
11:10 To be fair, Apex legends (at least when I gave it a try back in 2018 or something like that) will show you in the map before you jump the "hot spot" where you have the chance to find the best gear, of course other people probably will jump to the same place so it was a decision of do I try to get a better loot but I get the risk of being murdered or I jump far away from a hotspot, get worst loot but I get to live a bit more
I still hate the fact that apex legends has cosmetics for its guns and sells those for money, it’s always a great experience to get a new amazing skin for you Favorit weapon, and then not being able to try it out for the next 3 games you play because you can’t select your weapons and just have to pray that they show up
Tarkov is not Battle Royal. It has some of the same traits true, but fundamentally different. Every player is able to get out of the raid alive. You have goals when doing the quests to find items or get to certain areas and escape alive. Sometimes you need to kill NPCs and other times you need to kill players. You make choices on your loadout prior to entering the game. If you want to just hunt players you can or you can sneak all the way through the game. It is intended to be a hardcore shooter and death should result in leaving the game. They could however create an arena mode which could be like a more typical team death match with a highscore winning team.
Picking up additional/different upgraded weapons throughout the match is not a thing? Seems like a weird stance on which to pin the statement that these games "suck".
We thankfully have evolved from this trend now but I have to say that Apex legends has become much more alive and interesting thanks to the balanced gameplay and interesting backstories of the Legends
For me personally it goes even as far as disliking competitive sports in real life. For me they have no gain at all. You just out play other people. Even if this is accomplished by good team work you just exploited the weakness of the other team.
In real life the gain for players is money and in competitive e-sport it is money as well. Every competition if it is for points, money or other benefits for winning does not feel good for me.
But life is always the survival of the fittest so I have no real reason to blame systems which are designed around this.🙄
I get your points.. but suggesting to basically turn a battle royale into a deathmatch shoots can't be the solution.
After all, we might not be it, but many ppl enjoy this kind of game. And if a game is enjoyed, it can't suck so much – it serves its most fundamental purpose.
I like Free for All and by extension, Battle Royal, when I want Chaos and don't care who wins. However, Chaos is not something I want when I do care who wins.
One I like is super mecha champions, mech to mech fighting is fun, and losing doesn't result in death, you eject and have a chance to escape and summon another mech, or pull a sneaky and outflank a mech on foot. Human to mech heavily favours the mech, but leads to brilliant moments when you actually take one down before they can finish you off. Human to human is a weakpoint of the game, but it doesn't happen as often.
I wouldn't say Tarkov is a battle royal… Similar, but to its core its not the same. You bring your own gear, you do story tasks, you extract with the gear you obtain while sometimes never seeing other players. Your not flung out of a plane with nothing, forced to fight into a smaller and smaller area until one person is left. Tarkov is so much more intense and grounded and some times scary. Your character is slow and easily killed; imagen you're on a map like interchange (huge shopping mall) and its super dark. You make your way through the seemingly empty mall. You enter a store and all of a sudden you hear a team of 5 run near the store you're on. Its a fight or flight situation with real weight that you have to decide on in a matter of seconds. That's where I feel while yes at a glance I can see the comparison to games like fortnite, it feels insulting to call it the same. So many micro mechanics you have to take into consideration like food and water, making sure your magazines are fully loaded, the type of ammo you bring in, managing wounds and heavy bleeds and broken limbs, and now with the recent update weapon malfunctions that could all change the way things turn out. I personally and a lot of other people would compare too games like the dayz rather than fortnite because at its core its a survival game and not some arcade shooter.
I’ve tried to play warzone maybe half a dozen times and each time I die then spectate people for a couple minutes in utter confusion as to why I am choosing to spend my life like this. I simply do not understand the appeal and have tried to.
I somewhat both agree and disagree with you at the same time. I don't think the only fun part of the game are firefights. While playing PUBG, I had a lot of fun actually sneaking around and ambushing people. For example there was this exciting fear when hearing someone running in a room next to you, when you know you probably wont kill them fair and you need to keep silent but also to pinpoint exactly where they are, so you find them first and fight on your terms. There's also a stark contrast between silent sneaking and intense violent combat, making them both more enjoyable.
Then after a few hours that got old and i realised that dying doesnt matter that much, and its probably easier to go risk it all then die quick, then find another match. Especially if you're unlucky with your starting gear. That kind of killed the fun for me.
Darwinism the game. Real life survival isn't fun and only the best / luckiest get the rewards. Why should a game be like this? Battle Royale is most liked by children for a reason, they don't know about those awful aspects of life yet.
How 90% of my games start.
1: Try to go to a isolated building.
2: Frantically try to get to decent weapon
3: Get killed by a sweaty tryhard
4: Play something else or repeat step 1
If step 2 goes well, the fun can begin, and even then, its usually only about 5 minutes before i either get gamgbanged or picked off from afar.
Actually i think you kinda mix up 2 Different genres.
One would be the Arena Style game. (1 life. youre out of the match if you die)
The Battle Royale is a Subgenre of an Arena Style game.
Examples for the first genre would be old school Counterstrike (Normal Arena game mode). (you die youre out of the game) or Tetris 99.
The Prep/Downtime is sometimes (not always part of that Gamemode) and can be considered Bad. (Like having to watch your teamates in CS to finish the match)
The Battle royale adds the item/ressource hunt mechanic (lets call it prefight prep)
And for me thats the Genre defining part of that game. Players start with basic stuff. Hunt for more stuff. And try to survive the arena.
The Prefight prep in my opionion is actually part of the main gameplay loop. (Including the spawn mechanic)
From my experience the "get stuff. To get stronger than others and win the game" is actually the thing battle royale players actually enjoy. The skill and Challenge in succeeding does not soley depend on gunplay. But also on how to exploit the RNG system (get to spots where the best loot is before others get that loot)
You're very unfair here. For a start those older games aren't really battle Royal games. I would also say a lot of players playing it is required. Specifically 100 players. I wouldn't consider a pvp 1v1 a battle royal, but a deathmatch. secondly you arbitrarily define gameplay loops here. You claim that the customisation of your character is a key part of any battle royal game. No its not. Its an additional feature. A battle royal game doesn't require deep customisation of the character. If you're going to claim that that is a core mechanic of a battle royal game then you may as well claim the same for WOW or any of a dozen online MMOs. when that isn't the case. Claiming its a core mechanic of battle royal games is absurd.
The Core Gameplay loop of a battle royal game is to find gear to kill players to get gear to kill players. The last one left wins. As the match goes on the map of the battle royal game will shrink. Thus forcing players into engagements. The core gameplay loop of a battle royal game isn't bad. In fact I would argue its quite good. Saying that I can't stand the game mode. I've never been a fan of shooter games and I don't like the randomness of battle royal. I like deep strategy games where decisions matter. Battle Royal Games on the other hand survive on the player's skill with weapons alone. CSGO has some tactical decisions so I perfer it. Battle royal just doesn't. That's fine. COD and Battlefield also don't have any level of tactics to them either. That doesn't make them bad games, just not the game for me. Battle Royal games are fine games to play, but that doesn't mean everyone has to like them. And it doesn't mean its okay for you to claim they are objectively bad just because you disagree with their sales model and find the games unfun. It also doesn't make it okay to compare them to gambling just because there is a lot of randomness in the gameplay.
I don't like battle royal game so the only thing I can shout at you for being wrong about, is that I would shout it you for being wrong. Does… that count as fulfilling the part of the "we all know the drill part"?
I love this fix. It's basically the return of the arena shooter. And the arena shooter is among the best things that ever happened in videogames.
A little counter argument form someone who played his last br like 3 years ago: scavenging for items to get an advantage is part of the same loop as actually killing other players. your argument that killing and collecting are separated does not work well together because it is exactly these 2 things that need to interact for the whole thing to come together.
battle royale in the case of the 3 dominant games of that genre does not just mean you fight until 1 bloke is left.
in fact if these were actually bad games, why do people invest so much time into them? if its just marketing people stop playing as soon as they stop having fun.
Thank you for putting pretty much all my thoughts on the BR system into words. One issue I have is I think a game should be enjoyable for bad players as well. Battlefield is an example that comes to mind. I'm awful at all fps games and I still find fun in that game. If you're bad at a BR game you have 2 choices:
A) Drop in a populated area and die immediately, get kicked out for losing, then spend most of your time finding a game or dropping in.
B) Drop somewhere unpopulated so you can at least grab a gun without dying right away. Sounds like a solution to the first option right? Well now you're doomed to spend 5-15 minutes walking around and doing nothing. Never finding another player. Then suddenly, as stated in the video, you die to something out of your control. Surprise attack 1 shots, shot in the back, sniped without knowing the sniper exists, etc. Then most of your time is spent doing nothing.
Obviously the answer is "get good" but don't you think games should be enjoyable for more people than the 5 or so percent that play the games 24/7? I think the multiple lives suggestion would fix this issue a lot. Give me some more chances man! That's the whole reason I'd avoid Search and Destroy in CoD games. One life and you get cheesed out of it is no fun at all.
And then a person's counter argument would be "you just suck"
Ho boy. I 100% with you that Battle Royale games suck and that the mode itself is flawed AF. BUT, half your arguments are utter bullshit.
Let's start the the biggest one: "The gameplay loop is about facing off other humans and have a fair fight". This is not only incompletle, it's also partially wrong. Believe it or not, the loothing phase IS part of the gameplay loop. Just as talking to an NPC and accepting quests in the Witcher is part of it's gameplay loop. Wether you personally like it or not is a different matter, but it definitely is part of the loop, thus you can't just claim that there is so much downtime inbetween. There are many other games that have a lot of preperation time in some forms. Monster Hunter being one of those, in Dark Souls you'll also spend a lot of time thinking about how to level up, which weapons to use, upgrading your gear etc, surveying your surrounding and looting. In Borderlands you'll also find yourself standing around comparing stats on weapons, making choices and choices. These things ARE PART OF THE CORE GAMEPLAY LOOP, and A LOT OF PEOPLE DO LIKE THEM. Personally I do not enjoy the looting part in battle royale games either. Yet, it is undeniably part of the core gameplay loop and saying that it is not and in no way enjoyable just shows how little you really understand about battle royale gamemode.
Secondly, having "fair fights" isn't mandatory, nor a goal. And it's not exactly a bad thing either. Any game that offers different kinds of loadouts will throw out the "fair fight" thingy. This includes any games that have a skill system or classes, including PRETTY MUCH ANY MMO GAME. Counter Strike has different weapons and even dark souls is anything but fair. Not only do you have different weapons/equipment/loadout, you also have different character levels. And even if you do find yourself nice equipment, you can easily loose against people with worse stuff than you. There are different weapon types that excel in different kind of situations. Maybe you found the best rifle in the game, but if you find yourself fighting in close quarter against a shotgun, you are likely to still loose the fight. Even if the shotgun was objectively worse than the rifle.
On top of that, you also did directly criticize hero selection/loadout selection, claiming it already unbalances 1v1 duels. This so far isn't wrong, but the assumption that you should go into 1v1 duels is already flawed. The way you made it sound means that pretty much any competitive hero shooter is fundamentally flawed. And your argument doesn't even have any ground. Out of the 3 games you mentioned, only ONE actually does have a loadout system/hero selection. And it's the only one thats supposed to be played in groups of 3 (at least last time I played the game). That being said, in any BR game that has teammodes, you aren't supposed to engage in 1v1s all the time, but ACT AS A TEAM. You don't just rely on your own character's abilities, but also on your teammates, come up with strategies and counters and try to take out the enemies one by one as fast as possible. You only fight 1v1 if there is no better solution or if you fucked up. So if you constantly find yourself fighting 1v1 despite being in a squad, it just means that you suck.
Of course you could still argue that even in teams, having different heroes/laodouts from the start of the match is a flaw. But then again, this argument pretty much invalidates any class system. Overwatch's gameplay is entirely build on a hero selection system, Team Fortress 2 is still alive doing the same. And again, pretty much ANY FUCKING MMO uses a class/role system. I legit don't see how this could possibly be written off as a "flaw" exclusively to battle royale games.
My second big issue with your arguments, which clearly showed to me that you have barely any idea of what you are talking about, is the start of the match dropping mechanic. Calling it a glorified loadingscreen? Holy shit, have you even played any of these games? First I want to make clear: I have played battle royale games that spawns you directly on the ground and doesn't let you select your location. This completely removes any pre-planning and adaptation and instead shifts it towards reaction and improvisation. With a drop mechanic comes with a couple of very big and important points. As you mentioned, it let's you plan ahead and choose how you want to play the game (safe or risky). But more importantly, it let's you SEE where other people go, and prepare and react to that. If for some reason you find a lot of people targeting the same area you initially wanted to go to, you might want to improvise and decide to go somewhere else. Or you might use that to your advantage and start a quick engagement, trying to take over important locations and loot. The dropout mechanic is incredibly important in determing how a round plays out, not just in the short term, but also for the long run. Calling it a glorified laodingscreen just underscores your lack of understanding for this gamemode.
My next point is your criticism on how these types of games favor stealth. Sorry but what exactly is your point here? That you don't like the stealth/surprise bits? In case you haven't noticed, this is actually one of the biggest charms for battle royale games. You need to stay aware of your entire surroundings 24/7, if possible, smartly pick your fights. Decide when, where and how to engage, or maybe decide it's too dangerous to do so. Always make sure that you are prepared for a possible assassination. There are so many split seconds decisions you have to do, so many unknown variables and unpredictable situations. For a lot of people, this is a lot of fun. If it's not for you, then this game mode simply isn't for you. Not that complicated.
Again, I personally hate battle royale games as well, especially the shooter ones. I've tested a fair share of them and they just don't speak to me. I also know that they have fundamental flaws, that nobody even cares about fixing. In fact, a lot of people seem to even like this type of gamemode BECAUSE of it's flaws.
But your arguments are hardly about said flaws. What you tried to do here is dress up your personal opinion as flaws of the gamemode, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE. I also do not enjoy the looting parts of the game. I do not find as much fun in the ambushing aspect of the game. I also can't find much happyness in coming out on 2nd place out of 100, despite it being statistically better than being in a winning team out of 2. Yet, none of these things are fundamental flaws of the gamemode. It's personal opinion.
Sorry, but this video is a joke. I agree on the title, but disagree with most of the content of this video.
Titanfall2 ticks all your boxes
This video sums of all the key points really quick, great job!
Good vid, I totally understand your stand point on battle Royale and have experienced the many unfair deaths and at the same time had some really great moments and victory’s and bad ones as well and it does take skill to win and knowledge of the map and general idea of where the good loot is you have a good chance of winning and there is luck involved too, one game I had I ran out of ammo, the rest of my team was dead and it was me and one guy left, Grenades didn’t work and the only thing I had left was a small building between me and the last remaining enemy player and a Molotov that picked up for no reason, I threw it as he turned the corner got shot but didn’t die and I somehow won, winner winner chicken dinner, maybe the randomness of it is the reason I still play pubg but form that game on I always grab a Molotov just in case, it was a very memorable game and probably one of the reasons I still play
"n O n S h O o T e R"
I agree with a lot of your videos, but I thought your points here were quite weak. These systems in battle royales are specifically designed to create imbalances, so that different characters and weapons have clear advantages depending on the situation. You literally bring up that hero choices, referencing Apex, aren't good but are "interesting in team based games". Apex is a team based game. There's also a tactical advantage to choosing how long to wait to drop. I could go on, but it feels like you're missing the point of the games. They're designed to have short, more intense bursts of combat.
I just want more players for mmorpg games. But all the kids on battle royal 24/7. So now we have so many underrated games that get pushed aside for not being battle royal. Simplicity and randomness is whats keeping that game mode afloat.
Edit: would you say the same logic said in this video would apply to games like league of legends?
I don't play this game but I have played it recently a few times and around its first release. I never fancied the game and when I did well I didn't have any enjoyment from it. I feel like it's the hero vs hero part but maybe I'm wrong.
Trinston was here
.
OH YES! again, you put the things I'm thinking into beautifully put words. Thank you JSH
To me, the key difference between most games and Battle Royales is clear as day.
Deathmatch/Team Deathmatch is chaotic fun, but everyone has an equal chance of winning based on their own DM skill, and Map Knowledge.
Battle Royale's victory is determined by RNG, your success rating is determined by RNG, your failure rating is determined by RNG. Player skill does contribute, but if you get stuck with a pistol, vs the guy next to you who managed to find the "Instagib 4597" rocket launcher; then I think it's pretty clear who is destined to win this encounter.
One of the worse video on youtube you fucking nerd. Talk normal.
Fucking unbearable content. Fucking tryhard. TALK NORMAL YOU IDIOT
I agree with everything except that it's not your fualt specifically for apex legends, if you hear footsteps and dont react then it is your fualt, other then that I love the vid
one of such "cry morr git gud" morons once said, that fairness is a communist notion, that there is nothin fair RL
gues he forgot we were talking abou a game and that fairness is not about equality of outcome but opportunity
I'm 15 mins in and my thoughts are
1) Isn't the concept of "different classes with different abilities" core to a lot of non-BR, team-based games? TF2 and Overwatch did this pretty well and I think the variation makes things pretty fun.
2) Although you're mostly right about the point of airdrops, I will say that there's something kinda funny about being able to see other teams drop along with you Apex–although in my experience, the thought process is "oh dangit they're right next to us".
Then it's a scramble to find loot, which goes back to your point about random loot, which is totally right. Random loot feels really.. unfair. It makes me wonder how much of the entire Apex scene is just people who are just as good as each other but being propelled up or down in rankings based on luck. They're still better than me, but there's a cap on skill if the loot's random like that.
While I agree, I think the falling out of the sky does serve a purpose, you can choose exactly where you land and you also need to plan it out. People who land before you CAN actually shoot you out of the air
S4League did this gamemode right, having their BR matches on a time and score limit, the more kills and assists you make the better your score. If you reach max score before time is up you win, if the match times out then the person with the highest score wins. If you die, you respawn in 7 seconds. The arena is small unlike Fortnite so you will find enemy players in seconds, but there are plenty of obstacles to take cover and to hide for a surprise attack. There is even a comeback mechanic where the person with the highest points is worth 2 normal kills and 1 assist.
(re)spawns are randomized and instant. Only up to 12 players per match. No loot, no randomness, you pick your weapons before starting the game and no classes or abilities.
Too bad the game was shut down for good last April. I played the living heck out of that mode.
i agree they suck, but your argument is horrendous
29:00 YES!
Everything else I dont care but FUCK dont remove me because of luck.
In a 60 players lobby of apex (my core game since 2 years) I also have bad servers – – > Server lag – – > My screen freezing for like 300 ms – – > oh now i am dead – – > go back to lobby, chose characters – – > oh no, only 2 players in the team- – > other guy quits – – > you are alone – – > you quit cause 1 v3????? – – > back to lobby….
PUH SHIT, OKAY SOOOO HOOPEFULLY NEXT GAME IS GREAT – – – >
Load into a game, hope for 3 players, now drop, loot, get a good gun, fight OKAY ANOTHER PLAYER FROM A CORNER SHOOTS MY BACK, RUN AWAY –> i do get out, heal up but OMG TEAMMATE IS DOWN, NOW HE IS DEAD, oh he quit the game, now we are 2 v 3 for the enitrety of the game but lets go on…
– – – – – – – – > 4 squats left, now they fight, we roll in as a 3rd party yeah, I shoot but…. NOOOO SERVER DISCONNECTION….
i load in….
39 seconds later…
I STILL LIVE BUT…. teammate is dead, i am alone, only one squad left, they have kraber, fully kitted 99s and 301s and they wait @ the highground…
okay I think to myself… Nothing to loose, so lets at least have some fun
I go out, drop all my stuff and teabag them, showing them, at least i want to end it with a funny little punching battle against one of them…
OH NO THEY ARE COMPLETE TRYHARD SWEATS. GREEDY FOR THE KILL AND FOR KD (as if 1 kill more would benefit them anyhow)
– – > THEY HAVE A COMPETITION IN WHO COULD KILL AN UNARMED TARGET FIRST IN TEAMFIRE, – – – – > okay i am dead, back to the lobby…
hopefully next game is better…
APEX in a nutshell…
You simply cannot improve (only if you are completely cracked and have like 6 hours a day to play… I DONT HAVE AND I DONT WANT TO)
Still I love it ocasionally cause the chaos and how you can dodge bullets in between a cluster fight of 6 squads and come out alive with your mates banners…. That is the mist fun for me… Not killing or shooting bit those clutch survival moments where you move inbetween squads with wraith or pathfinder, like lava would be everywhere
Great video! I'm releasing a similar critique on my channel soon, but I talk a lot more about the way various mechanics push you away from the core gameplay loop of combat and reward passivity in a way unlike other FPS games. I love your takes here. I agree that you spend a larger amount of time sitting around than you do playing. It makes for a fanfare over nothing and ultimately serves players who value the looks and flashiness of the game over players who actually want to fight competitive battles. The random loot only makes it worse.
Can't wait to check out your other content! Keep it up.
i don't play battle royal but i think you're mistaking battle royal with deathmatch. and everything you call bad is what actually makes it battle royal, there's a great video series of sovietwomble about dayz and the games genres it has created. i would recommend it to you.
battle royal is not purely about killing players, its about finding them and hiding from them, discovery etc. its not deathmatch. you just don't like battle royal genre in general like me. i like survival, looter, builder.
and btw there was battle royal before dayz too, it was minecraft hunger games mod. so the first mechanics of battle royal actually comes from hunger games.
Id say your point 3 is kind of incorrect, youre forgetting being able to see where enemies are going and choosing who and where you want to fight or if you want to avoid a fight for a while and choose a further point, just because you dont have to actively press buttons doesnt mean you arent actively playing the game at that point. You can turn your brain off but it does matter quite a bit where you start and who else is starting there.
I totally forgot Twisted Metal was a battle royal 🤣
11:10 To be fair, Apex legends (at least when I gave it a try back in 2018 or something like that) will show you in the map before you jump the "hot spot" where you have the chance to find the best gear, of course other people probably will jump to the same place so it was a decision of do I try to get a better loot but I get the risk of being murdered or I jump far away from a hotspot, get worst loot but I get to live a bit more
I still hate the fact that apex legends has cosmetics for its guns and sells those for money, it’s always a great experience to get a new amazing skin for you Favorit weapon, and then not being able to try it out for the next 3 games you play because you can’t select your weapons and just have to pray that they show up
Tarkov is not Battle Royal. It has some of the same traits true, but fundamentally different. Every player is able to get out of the raid alive. You have goals when doing the quests to find items or get to certain areas and escape alive. Sometimes you need to kill NPCs and other times you need to kill players. You make choices on your loadout prior to entering the game. If you want to just hunt players you can or you can sneak all the way through the game. It is intended to be a hardcore shooter and death should result in leaving the game. They could however create an arena mode which could be like a more typical team death match with a highscore winning team.
Play some totally accurate battle ground
Its a good satire
And it gives you more chances
True but team-based games suck ass.
Just like the loop of me playing gta story mode over and over again
Picking up additional/different upgraded weapons throughout the match is not a thing? Seems like a weird stance on which to pin the statement that these games "suck".
We thankfully have evolved from this trend now but I have to say that Apex legends has become much more alive and interesting thanks to the balanced gameplay and interesting backstories of the Legends
When the child play battle royale and he can stop it:
For me personally it goes even as far as disliking competitive sports in real life. For me they have no gain at all. You just out play other people. Even if this is accomplished by good team work you just exploited the weakness of the other team.
In real life the gain for players is money and in competitive e-sport it is money as well. Every competition if it is for points, money or other benefits for winning does not feel good for me.
But life is always the survival of the fittest so I have no real reason to blame systems which are designed around this.🙄
I get your points.. but suggesting to basically turn a battle royale into a deathmatch shoots can't be the solution.
After all, we might not be it, but many ppl enjoy this kind of game. And if a game is enjoyed, it can't suck so much – it serves its most fundamental purpose.
But if 10 year olds are having fun that takes away from time they are buying skins and season packs…
Battleroyale is shit
I like Free for All and by extension, Battle Royal, when I want Chaos and don't care who wins. However, Chaos is not something I want when I do care who wins.
Smh , maybe ur just bad
One I like is super mecha champions, mech to mech fighting is fun, and losing doesn't result in death, you eject and have a chance to escape and summon another mech, or pull a sneaky and outflank a mech on foot.
Human to mech heavily favours the mech, but leads to brilliant moments when you actually take one down before they can finish you off.
Human to human is a weakpoint of the game, but it doesn't happen as often.
I wouldn't say Tarkov is a battle royal… Similar, but to its core its not the same. You bring your own gear, you do story tasks, you extract with the gear you obtain while sometimes never seeing other players. Your not flung out of a plane with nothing, forced to fight into a smaller and smaller area until one person is left. Tarkov is so much more intense and grounded and some times scary. Your character is slow and easily killed; imagen you're on a map like interchange (huge shopping mall) and its super dark. You make your way through the seemingly empty mall. You enter a store and all of a sudden you hear a team of 5 run near the store you're on. Its a fight or flight situation with real weight that you have to decide on in a matter of seconds. That's where I feel while yes at a glance I can see the comparison to games like fortnite, it feels insulting to call it the same. So many micro mechanics you have to take into consideration like food and water, making sure your magazines are fully loaded, the type of ammo you bring in, managing wounds and heavy bleeds and broken limbs, and now with the recent update weapon malfunctions that could all change the way things turn out. I personally and a lot of other people would compare too games like the dayz rather than fortnite because at its core its a survival game and not some arcade shooter.
MMORPGs are better
I’ve tried to play warzone maybe half a dozen times and each time I die then spectate people for a couple minutes in utter confusion as to why I am choosing to spend my life like this. I simply do not understand the appeal and have tried to.